Friday, 18 January 2013

At what point is "Game" not worth it?

The question I want to ask everyone in this post is this - at what point does going out primarily for the purpose of gaming women become not worth it?

I know most people who get into PUA definitely question whether spending all this time, money and effort on this is worth it. Forget PUAs, even general guys who chase women a lot through different means, do question at some point whether it's worth the trouble. I hope this post will help them.

So the way I look at this is very simple - there is a certain dollar value estimate of my time in opportunity cost terms. There is a certain value I associate with getting a chick. If dollar value of time spent is greater than the value I get from it, it is not worth it.

For the purpose of a crude sample calculation, let's say I value my time at $20 an hour. Say I value getting a chick at $200 (roughly the cost of a decent escort per hour). So basically what I am saying is that on an average, if I don't get a girl for every 10 hours I put in, then it is not worth it. 10 hours roughly translates to 3 nights of going out.

Now these would be different for different people. Maybe you really enjoy going to the venues you go to. That brings down the effective opportunity cost. Maybe you are a broke homeless guy, so your opportunity cost is lower. Maybe you value getting chicks from a random approach highly. So your value is much higher. Maybe you are on vacation, maybe you have a business to work on - there are a bunch of factors. Maybe for you a bunch of intangibles matter a lot. Maybe you feel right now it is not worth it, but pretty soon, you will get the hang of this thing, and it will then be worth it.

Whatever the case might be and whatever your numbers might be, the point just becomes this - decide a certain success rate for yourself. If you are not getting at least that, then just quit. Say it is making out with at least one chick for every two nights I go out. Getting one chick home for every 6 nights I go out. It needn't just be chicks though. Maybe you went out and found amazing guy who hit it off really well with, and are likely to become each others BFFs. Whatever it is. Just fix on something. If you are not hitting that consistently, seriously, just quit.

If I give you my own example, I am not a particularly stand out attractive guy, so if I were approaching chicks randomly it would take me fair amount of time to get one (on an average). I also have a business to work on, I have a couple of side interests I indulge in, have some friends to hang out with. The country I live in is also fairly conservative. Thus for me, generally speaking, committing a bunch of time from my schedule exclusively for the purpose of approaching random women is just not worth it.

For others, maybe you have a bunch of time on your hands. Maybe you live in a city or are involved in a niche where women are in general very open to fucking random guys. Maybe you are a tall and very good looking guy. For a guy like this, it makes much more sense to go out in the pursuit of pussy.

For most people though, I am sure if they did a calculation like this, they would realize that for them spending a bunch of time exclusively on women is most likely not worth it.


  1. Hey Johnny.

    Just started reading the book. It's great.
    Read the part where you asked the instructors if your race, accent, etc. might have an effect on your results and that white guys get laid easy in thailand and they completely dismissed it.

    I'm of Indian descent, born and raised in North America, and wondering if you can give me any insights (positives and negatives) on how meeting girls will differ from our perspective, especially since you wrote that you've lived in quite a few different countries.

    As for asian girls, I've also noticed north american born ones want nothing but white dudes. I've lately been exposed to japanese and korean born girls and have gotten along well with them (have hooked up with a few). Added this in case you like asian girls, best to focus on korean/japanese born.


    1. Hey man,

      Thanks for your comment. If you could get more specific about your question it would be better as otherwise I could talk hours about this :)

      In general, I found venue matters a lot, especially as a guy who may not be considered attractive by a mainstream population. If you are blonde, blue eyed, 6ft tall guy, probably venues matter less. I found success in venues and contexts which attract a more diverse and international crowd.

      Another thing I would tell you think about is that you should try to make a bunch of non-Indian friends if you don't have them already. It's much easier for you to meet a girl that way as she will also feel more comfortable. Imagine if you were the only Indian guy in a group of 20 Swedish people. You would definitely not be totally comfortable.

      Another thing which some of friends have had success with is meeting girls at Indian focused events or contexts. This almost certainly means that chicks who are there would be open to meeting Indian guys. Few things which come to mind are Bollywood funk classes, Bhangra parties etc.

      Europe in general is an easier place to date if you ever make your way there.

      DOn't know if that answered your quesiton, but if you have a more specific question, I would be happy to answer

    2. There is so much misinformation and so many bogus products surrounding penis enlargement that when they discover the solution, no one will believe. So here goes; any male can permanently increase length and girth in the same way a bodybuilder adds mass and becomes larger. As you stress tissue, the body goes into a natural process of creating new cells making you larger. The question is not whether permanent enlargement is possible but instead, how do you safely stress penile tissue to promote cell growth? The answers can be found at

  2. PART ONE:

    I kind of get the point you were trying to make Johnny, but I think it came across wrong. If one is to apply the prescription above in business he would never make a successful business (because as you know in business one has to first pour in a ton of effort for "free" where you put in long-hours and get no monetary returns, sometimes for years, before the returns come).

    It can be similar in dating, especially for someone with a long dry-spell (or even worse celibacy).

    I get what you were trying to put across, you're trying to show the inefficiency of wasting time doing thousands of sets that lead nowhere, and that's noble.

    But ironically the real process follows the same path of "doing a ton of work and going nowhere for a while". Even if you do the legit anti-game, non-game route to getting a dating(sex) life, at first you have to put in hundreds or thousands of hours of work without a single lay (or even a kiss, depending on your starting point).

    So I don't think amount of effort per-lay-gotten is the proper metric to give up on a strategy, at least not for someone who's starting from scratch or from a very low place (as are most of the people attracted by the community).

    I think a much better metric is investment hours vs. work hours

    -Strategy A> If you spend 1000 (WORK) hours STREET-sarging to get ten lays, this is a waste, as you've wasted 2000$ per lay

    -Strategy B> If you spend a 1000 (INVESTMENT) hours befriending female friends, making high-status social connections and organizing parties and you only get one effortless lay accidentally, this is NOT a waste, because you have MADE dozens of female friends in the process, dozens of high-status male friends, you've built up status and you can use this to get easier access to lays in the future.

    It's about living off of dividends. In strategy B, when you build up the status, social connections, popularity and social lifestyle, you will find pussy is thrown at you (later on), and you live off of dividends. You basically just need to escalate on all the female friends' friends who are hitting on you or say yes to all the setting up offers being given to you...

    Take two guys applying each strategy

    A) One hits on hundreds of chicks in malls each week at ten hours a day of day sarging

    B) The other spends ten hours a day building up popularity, status, social ties, befriending female friends, making ties to popular people

    GUY A will get MORE lays in the first three months (MANY MORE!)
    GUY B will get LESS lays in the first three months (MUCH LESS!)

    But a YEAR IN THE FUTURE, things will flip...

    Guy B will be able to lay back, just maintain his social status at 2 hours a day and GET MORE LAYS, than GUY A gets WHO IS still doing as much as 6-7 hours of sarging a day. Not only will GUY B get more lays-a-month than GUY A a year onward, but those lays will be a lot more effortless, and with zero effort (outside of physical escalation, no other effort).

    GUY A WILL NOT be able to dial down the amount of work... If he wants to maintain the number of lays he gets, he has to maintain MOST of the number of sets a day he does.

    So it's about INVESTMENT so you can live off of passive income in the future, or ACTIVE WORK where you have to work for each cent you get.

    1. PART TWO


      The scam in the community is not where they tell you stories about how at first you have struggle, but you invest and invest and invest and eventually you get pussy on tap.

      THIS IS actually what guys who get a ton of pussy on tap have done (rockstars, socially popular party organizer, well-connected guy, guys who are at the top of a particular niche etc etc).

      THE SCAM is implying that this "Invest until pussy is thrown at you" process works on "sarging" (approaching random strangers).

      COMMUNITY IMPLIES: If you simply sarge enough random chicks and try enough ways of acting, talking, walking and interacting, you will eventually reach the point of the PERFECT PICKUP GRANDMASTER -> This is the guy who can see any chick anywhere, walk up, say a few things and pull her home.

      OBJECTIVE TRUTH: (yes there is some investment/progression, but it's a lot more pathetic) When you start out, if you are a complete utter social oddity and wreck, if you walk up to 30 chicks and ask them for a date, one will say yes. If you spend YEARS approaching random strangers (for hours and hours every single day) and you do everything possible to optimize the process, you might get one in 20 on a date.

      In other words, the progression is pretty fucking mediocre, and most often it's simply a point of getting from "creepy" to "charming stranger"... But that's it, there's no level above charming-stranger.

      HOWEVER GO AND FUCKING invest YEARS (at hours a day) on practicing the guitar, and join a band, and see how much pussy is thrown at you.

      Invest YEARS (at hours a day) perfecting a craft like say becoming a fashion photographer and in a few years you can be backstage with all the hottest supermodels in the country and have hundreds of them as acquintances and personal friends who (oh btw) set you up with their hot friends without you even asking (passive results)...


      So it's not really hours vs. lays in the short term. It's about distinguishing whether those hours are an investment in future passive-results, or if those hours are active-work.

    2. Good points and you clarified things very well. I should have made this point more clear. I meant returns you get not necessarily in the short term, but in the long term.

      I mentioned this part very briefly in the line - "Maybe you feel right now it is not worth it, but pretty soon, you will get the hang of this thing, and it will then be worth it. "

      The issue with the way people usually do things, and you said this yourself, is that even after putting in years of work, you are still not better off in any particular way. You still have to work equally as hard.

      This is what I really wanted to say. If people don't even see the potential of achieving a reasonable rate of return even in the long term, then you should definitely quit.

      And the thing is, the answer to this question is all over. You look at guys like GLL, Paul Janka etc. and they admit it very openly themselves. These are exceptionally good looking guys, living in the perfect environment to get chicks, have a lifestyle perfectly conducive to getting them, who put in shit loads of effort and yet, their returns have terrible. An average guy experiences a lot of more of what Roosh does.

      In spite of this, people don't get it. At least when I look at a musician in a band, or a fantastic dancer, or a club promoter, at least I see that after a bunch of effort, they can just sit back and let pussy come to them. These other guys after years and years of work, are still working like crazy

    3. Oh and btw Alek, the band example you talked about - I have a friend who works crazy work hours in some desk job (it pays him very well). Pretty much the only thing he did for the last 2 years or so is play his guitar.

      I don't think there was any purpose to him playing. It was just a way for him to unwind. Because he was making money, he could afford expensive lessons.

      Around November last year was when he performed live in his first amateur show. Since then he has been performing in some shitty shows as part of some shitty bands, once every two weeks or so. His dating life has just exploded!

      I spoke to him 2 days ago and he was telling me that this year, he has gone on at least one date very week. That too is from him just showing up for the performance and then chicks coming to chat him up.

      And this is a guy who is roughly 5'7" in height, not particularly well dressed or in great shape.

      These are bloody examples which community should be promoting. Not the stupid Paul Janka like examples.

    4. Alek - what if I am not so social? I don't like big gatherings and meeting a lot of new people. I prefer quality over quantity so to speak. So cold approach speaks to me better cause I can meet girl outside of my social circle while enjoying my time with my close friends. I wont change that.

  3. Johnny I don't mean to sound "Gamey" but when a woman does like you. Two questions, how do you know she does? Also how do you move the interaction forward?

  4. 1) Some of it is instinct. You can develop it better by actually following your instinct and then see where it goes. This way, your instinct will become good over time. More concrete tests are to look at women who seem bored, or are not really engaged with their group, or are staring around the room. This women are likely to be interested in talking to people. Others are of course a woman who looks at you. If you are talking to a girl, the best way is to touch her and/or move in close and see how she reacts. Basically making a physical move is the best way.

    2) Moving the interaction forward - First step is to make a physical move and see if she is interested. If yes, then you can pretty much do whatever you want. Take her to a corner, ask her to sit with you, talk, whatever.

  5. I agree that PUA and 'game' is bullshit. If you want to learn how to be successful with women by being Direct, real and honest, please visit my website,

  6. Hey I just had to give a big shout out to you, my friend. I've been looking at your stuff for some time now and been a long time lurker. Keep up the articles because they're great. Any time you will be in Toronto?

  7. I really appreciate your professional approach.These are pieces of very useful information that will be of great use for me in future.

    korean porn

  8. Johnny,
    I completely agree what you had to say about cold approaching. I have seen it for myself. It can be mentally and emotionally taxing; thus, it should be done as a supplement to your daily life/routine. My question is the following… would you agree that going to a strip club is by far much better than cold approaching? I live in the Unites States (Los Angeles, California), so I’m not sure what the strip clubs are like in the UK/Europe, but in the United States, a lot of stripper’s view customers as losers. Going to strip clubs is an expensive lifestyle and a niche. I have been a patron for a couple of years, and I tend to get more ass than I would going to mainstream clubs/bars. Often, the social dynamic between the dancer and the patron involves pay for play which a lot of strippers regularly engage in (its only possible for men to achieve this if they have the disposable income, but it’s a great way of hooking up with very attractive girls…the same girls you would see at mainstream clubs). Having said this, it seems more conducive and easier to hook up with strippers than investing a lot of hours just to simply meet a girl at a club/bar. What are your thoughts?